Share information about reloading the 22 TCM cartridge
User avatar
By TXCOONDOG
#1519 I have read that some reloaders are getting split cases after one or two firings using OEM brass. What is not clear is how hot their loads are or if they annealed.

What has been your experience with OEM cases ?

Do you make your own brass ? If so, What .223/5.56 manafacture of brass seems to hold up the best ?

PS: List your equipment used to make your brass such as a mini chop saw, dremel with cutting wheel, propane torch or mapp gas, etc for those new to the process.

Here's a YT video done by Bill with KSW: http://youtu.be/ojZvkJ8BXRk
Last edited by TXCOONDOG on Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:20 am, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
By Pakn1911
#1520 I got split cases on the OEM brass after about three reloads. I was using 10.8 gr H110 so not so hot. The new brass I have not had any problems with.

I tried cutting down the .223 brass but found it to be more trouble than buying new brass. To me it is not worth the trouble unless you can't get the new brass.

TM
User avatar
By Handloader109
#1521 I agree it is a LOT of trouble making your own. Thought it would be pretty easy, cut off, debut,resize, trim and go....well my steps are as follows...ymmv
1. Select good 223 cases, no dings down where neck is, hopefully once fired. Look at ejector marks too.
2. Deprime. Yes do this first
3. Swage or otherwise remove any crimps.
4. Cut off the case. I use the HF saw and a holder I found thru Castbullets
5. Debur case. This can be done before or after next step, safer now.
6. Anneal the case where neck will be. This should not be necessary if we had correct tools, but to use the sizing die alone, I have only made good cases when annealed at this time.
7. Convert the case. Use the sizing die to reform the neck. Use good lube, I have spray Hornady, but Lee works better. Have done two ways using Hornady die. A. Leave in the decap pin, or B. Remove pin and size, then put pin back in and size again. Less pressure doing B. But it is two step. Must use decap pin to get the wall thickness correct.
8. Trim to correct length. I altered Lee cutter to the right length and use this to insure length is right. I use file also if the case is way long as Lee cutter is not very good......
9. I reinstall the sizing die and hit case again when I load on my progressive.

Way long process. And unless you have the time and a lot of good 223 cases, I'd save the money spent on annealer, and cutter and buy new cases. But I CAN make my own if armscor were to stop making the round.....I guess that is why I have been doing this.
John
User avatar
By chefreiss1
#1535 Annealing or softening your cases after the first firing the old fashion way which is quick and easy and will add at least 6 or more reloadings. Maybe more if you anneal again after the fourth or fifth firing. It is easy for those of you that may not know how. Just get a metal pan, such as a cake pan, the larger the pan means the more cases at a time that you can do. Follow the instructions below.

You will need a cake pan ( larger is better ), a 6 - 10 inch wood dowel ( 1/4" to 3/8" diameter works well) and a propane or map torch.

1. Set the firing cases (before sizing and decaping) in the pan, case mouth up. Space them out so that you have about 2 to 3 inches all the way around each case. You will find what spacing works for you from experience.
2. Without knocking any of the cases over, slowly poor in cold (starting out with cold helps to keep it cool longer) water up to a level so that it is about 1/4" below the bottom of the case shoulder. The water level is important because you don't want to anneal much lower than the case shoulder.
3. Once you have the water in the pan, take the lit torch and heat the case necks until they turn "cherry red" in color. It only about 30 seconds or less, depending on how hot your torch burns, how cool the water is and the room or air temp.
4. As soon as the case neck is red, quickly tip it over with the dowel by just tapping it.
5. Just move on to the next one.

Just keep in mind that all you are trying to do is anneal or "soften" the case neck. You do not under any circumstance want to anneal any lower than 1/4" below the should on a case the size of the .22 TCM. Doing so my cause case failure. But done properly the cartridge case neck will remain softer than the rest of the case and allow it to expand during firing instead of splitting. I have had to anneal many cases in my years of reloading and never suffer any ill consequences. However one thing you may want to check for after the first firing (after annealing) is case length. Because the case is a little softer it may stretch a little more than normal and require trimming to length, but it may take several firings in my experience before this is needed, if at all. Remember to that on each subsequent firing the case neck will become harder due to the heat and pressure it is subjected to, hence you may need to anneal again. The myth that you can work harden a case by multiple anneals is just that, firing it again and again is "work hardening" the case and causing it to split, proper annealing only helps to delay the damage. Also you can not get the case to hot with the torch, it will just stay red. Quenching in water cools it quickly and to the proper annealed hardness. The temperature of the water is not that critical, but change it when you put in a new load of brass. Last, annealed cases are easier to size and expand because of the soft brass.

I think I've covered it all, but please help me out if I have missed anything.

NRA LIFE MEMBER
User avatar
By Overtrim
#1557
chefreiss1 wrote:Annealing or softening your cases after the first firing the old fashion way which is quick and easy and will add at least 6 or more reloadings. Maybe more if you anneal again after the fourth or fifth firing. It is easy for those of you that may not know how. Just get a metal pan, such as a cake pan, the larger the pan means the more cases at a time that you can do. Follow the instructions below.

You will need a cake pan ( larger is better ), a 6 - 10 inch wood dowel ( 1/4" to 3/8" diameter works well) and a propane or map torch.

1. Set the firing cases (before sizing and decaping) in the pan, case mouth up. Space them out so that you have about 2 to 3 inches all the way around each case. You will find what spacing works for you from experience.
2. Without knocking any of the cases over, slowly poor in cold (starting out with cold helps to keep it cool longer) water up to a level so that it is about 1/4" below the bottom of the case shoulder. The water level is important because you don't want to anneal much lower than the case shoulder.
3. Once you have the water in the pan, take the lit torch and heat the case necks until they turn "cherry red" in color. It only about 30 seconds or less, depending on how hot your torch burns, how cool the water is and the room or air temp.
4. As soon as the case neck is red, quickly tip it over with the dowel by just tapping it.
5. Just move on to the next one.

Just keep in mind that all you are trying to do is anneal or "soften" the case neck. You do not under any circumstance want to anneal any lower than 1/4" below the should on a case the size of the .22 TCM. Doing so my cause case failure. But done properly the cartridge case neck will remain softer than the rest of the case and allow it to expand during firing instead of splitting. I have had to anneal many cases in my years of reloading and never suffer any ill consequences. However one thing you may want to check for after the first firing (after annealing) is case length. Because the case is a little softer it may stretch a little more than normal and require trimming to length, but it may take several firings in my experience before this is needed, if at all. Remember to that on each subsequent firing the case neck will become harder due to the heat and pressure it is subjected to, hence you may need to anneal again. The myth that you can work harden a case by multiple anneals is just that, firing it again and again is "work hardening" the case and causing it to split, proper annealing only helps to delay the damage. Also you can not get the case to hot with the torch, it will just stay red. Quenching in water cools it quickly and to the proper annealed hardness. The temperature of the water is not that critical, but change it when you put in a new load of brass. Last, annealed cases are easier to size and expand because of the soft brass.

I think I've covered it all, but please help me out if I have missed anything.

NRA LIFE MEMBER


Doesn't dumping the case in the water causes it to harden. I am a woodworker (turner) and sometimes I make my own tools. Normally I use "O1" steel and after shaping the tool, I will heat it red and drop it into oil. The flash cooling of the oil hardens the tool to a point that it is unusable. We bring the tool back to a useable condition by heating it to 400-450 and keep it at that temp for a couple of hours. I would have thought that the case neck area would need to cool gradually.
User avatar
By chefreiss1
#1558
Overtrim wrote:
chefreiss1 wrote:Annealing or softening your cases after the first firing the old fashion way which is quick and easy and will add at least 6 or more reloadings. Maybe more if you anneal again after the fourth or fifth firing. It is easy for those of you that may not know how. Just get a metal pan, such as a cake pan, the larger the pan means the more cases at a time that you can do. Follow the instructions below.

You will need a cake pan ( larger is better ), a 6 - 10 inch wood dowel ( 1/4" to 3/8" diameter works well) and a propane or map torch.

1. Set the firing cases (before sizing and decaping) in the pan, case mouth up. Space them out so that you have about 2 to 3 inches all the way around each case. You will find what spacing works for you from experience.
2. Without knocking any of the cases over, slowly poor in cold (starting out with cold helps to keep it cool longer) water up to a level so that it is about 1/4" below the bottom of the case shoulder. The water level is important because you don't want to anneal much lower than the case shoulder.
3. Once you have the water in the pan, take the lit torch and heat the case necks until they turn "cherry red" in color. It only about 30 seconds or less, depending on how hot your torch burns, how cool the water is and the room or air temp.
4. As soon as the case neck is red, quickly tip it over with the dowel by just tapping it.
5. Just move on to the next one.

Just keep in mind that all you are trying to do is anneal or "soften" the case neck. You do not under any circumstance want to anneal any lower than 1/4" below the should on a case the size of the .22 TCM. Doing so my cause case failure. But done properly the cartridge case neck will remain softer than the rest of the case and allow it to expand during firing instead of splitting. I have had to anneal many cases in my years of reloading and never suffer any ill consequences. However one thing you may want to check for after the first firing (after annealing) is case length. Because the case is a little softer it may stretch a little more than normal and require trimming to length, but it may take several firings in my experience before this is needed, if at all. Remember to that on each subsequent firing the case neck will become harder due to the heat and pressure it is subjected to, hence you may need to anneal again. The myth that you can work harden a case by multiple anneals is just that, firing it again and again is "work hardening" the case and causing it to split, proper annealing only helps to delay the damage. Also you can not get the case to hot with the torch, it will just stay red. Quenching in water cools it quickly and to the proper annealed hardness. The temperature of the water is not that critical, but change it when you put in a new load of brass. Last, annealed cases are easier to size and expand because of the soft brass.

I think I've covered it all, but please help me out if I have missed anything.

NRA LIFE MEMBER


Doesn't dumping the case in the water causes it to harden. I am a woodworker (turner) and sometimes I make my own tools. Normally I use "O1" steel and after shaping the tool, I will heat it red and drop it into oil. The flash cooling of the oil hardens the tool to a point that it is unusable. We bring the tool back to a useable condition by heating it to 400-450 and keep it at that temp for a couple of hours. I would have thought that the case neck area would need to cool gradually.


No it doesn't harden the brass. I have using this method for nearly 36 years, on large to small brass cartridge cases and it works well. You don't need one of the fancy annealing machines they have now (watch out they will have people or robots who will take your gun to the range and fire it for you, but they will tell you how it went in a report with graphs & charts). It has worked for .22 Jet, .30 Herrett, .401 Herter's Powermag, 7mm TCU, .25-35 Winchester, .222 Remington, .30 Mauser,
.32-20 WINCHESTER , .38-40 Winchester .44-40 Winchester and the list goes on. You see the change in the color of the case neck as soon as you pick them up from the water and know immediately the job was accomplished. It could be the thin thickness of the brass case or the fact that it is brass and the chemical properties it possess'. I don't know, it becomes softer every time, is simply to do and is nearly fool proof. So for the last time, No it does not harden the brass to tip them over into water after heating them cherry red with a torch!
User avatar
By Overtrim
#1559
chefreiss1 wrote:
Overtrim wrote:
chefreiss1 wrote:Annealing or softening your cases after the first firing the old fashion way which is quick and easy and will add at least 6 or more reloadings. Maybe more if you anneal again after the fourth or fifth firing. It is easy for those of you that may not know how. Just get a metal pan, such as a cake pan, the larger the pan means the more cases at a time that you can do. Follow the instructions below.

You will need a cake pan ( larger is better ), a 6 - 10 inch wood dowel ( 1/4" to 3/8" diameter works well) and a propane or map torch.

1. Set the firing cases (before sizing and decaping) in the pan, case mouth up. Space them out so that you have about 2 to 3 inches all the way around each case. You will find what spacing works for you from experience.
2. Without knocking any of the cases over, slowly poor in cold (starting out with cold helps to keep it cool longer) water up to a level so that it is about 1/4" below the bottom of the case shoulder. The water level is important because you don't want to anneal much lower than the case shoulder.
3. Once you have the water in the pan, take the lit torch and heat the case necks until they turn "cherry red" in color. It only about 30 seconds or less, depending on how hot your torch burns, how cool the water is and the room or air temp.
4. As soon as the case neck is red, quickly tip it over with the dowel by just tapping it.
5. Just move on to the next one.

Just keep in mind that all you are trying to do is anneal or "soften" the case neck. You do not under any circumstance want to anneal any lower than 1/4" below the should on a case the size of the .22 TCM. Doing so my cause case failure. But done properly the cartridge case neck will remain softer than the rest of the case and allow it to expand during firing instead of splitting. I have had to anneal many cases in my years of reloading and never suffer any ill consequences. However one thing you may want to check for after the first firing (after annealing) is case length. Because the case is a little softer it may stretch a little more than normal and require trimming to length, but it may take several firings in my experience before this is needed, if at all. Remember to that on each subsequent firing the case neck will become harder due to the heat and pressure it is subjected to, hence you may need to anneal again. The myth that you can work harden a case by multiple anneals is just that, firing it again and again is "work hardening" the case and causing it to split, proper annealing only helps to delay the damage. Also you can not get the case to hot with the torch, it will just stay red. Quenching in water cools it quickly and to the proper annealed hardness. The temperature of the water is not that critical, but change it when you put in a new load of brass. Last, annealed cases are easier to size and expand because of the soft brass.

I think I've covered it all, but please help me out if I have missed anything.

NRA LIFE MEMBER


Doesn't dumping the case in the water causes it to harden. I am a woodworker (turner) and sometimes I make my own tools. Normally I use "O1" steel and after shaping the tool, I will heat it red and drop it into oil. The flash cooling of the oil hardens the tool to a point that it is unusable. We bring the tool back to a useable condition by heating it to 400-450 and keep it at that temp for a couple of hours. I would have thought that the case neck area would need to cool gradually.


No it doesn't harden the brass. I have using this method for nearly 36 years, on large to small brass cartridge cases and it works well. You don't need one of the fancy annealing machines they have now (watch out they will have people or robots who will take your gun to the range and fire it for you, but they will tell you how it went in a report with graphs & charts). It has worked for .22 Jet, .30 Herrett, .401 Herter's Powermag, 7mm TCU, .25-35 Winchester, .222 Remington, .30 Mauser,
.32-20 WINCHESTER , .38-40 Winchester .44-40 Winchester and the list goes on. You see the change in the color of the case neck as soon as you pick them up from the water and know immediately the job was accomplished. It could be the thin thickness of the brass case or the fact that it is brass and the chemical properties it possess'. I don't know, it becomes softer every time, is simply to do and is nearly fool proof. So for the last time, No it does not harden the brass to tip them over into water after heating them cherry red with a torch!


I just asked a simple question. I was not question your manhood and did not intend to ruffle your feathers. Have a great weekend and happy father's day you!
User avatar
By Handloader109
#1560 Overtrim, brass works different than steel. You would most definitely harden the steel if you quenched quickly. Brass doesn't do that. Now, I'll say that as short as these cases are, you would Have to have base in water to keep it from annealing if you heat to red. 223s are long enough to cool without. But you do Not have to heat to red to anneal enough. Go read a bit more, brass is at soft stage at 675f most folks use a 700f indicator to keep from overheating. It's not red at 700degrees. Btw, I am not heating mine that hot, and it works, I should anneal again after shooting, would most likely extended the life of case. And the same with everything else we do, each of us has their own way to accomplish reloading.
User avatar
By Handloader109
#1561 Oh, I said to go read......... Here is a link to one of the definitive sources........
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Go read it all. And read testing section on over and under annealing and then section on testing.
Let's be careful the 22TCM is quite a high pressure cartridge. Have a good weekend guys. Go shoot! I gotta work.